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Main - Craziness Domain 二番: Kuchi Kopi's Bar - Installers
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Lili~ ♥
Posted on 03-09-12 06:36 PM Link | ID: 8775
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These are still written on every installer:

It is advised that you close all other Windows applications before continuing.

The installation may take several minutes.

Does anyone actually close other applications when installing something, because I definitely don't. And the "several minutes" part, when was the time where installing something took this long? :P


Kawa
Posted on 03-09-12 06:38 PM Link | ID: 8776
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That's just because sometimes they might try to overwrite shared system files. Nowadays, that's hardly an issue for the average app, but the installers themselves, being off-the-shelf, still have the warning.


Nicole
Posted on 03-09-12 06:39 PM Link | ID: 8777
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I never see that message on OS X. :)

*shot*


Kiyoshi
Posted on 03-09-12 07:02 PM Link | ID: 8780
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Posted by Nicole
I never see that message on OS X. :)

*shot*
That's because these are pre-built packages, and the system files are untouchable.
It avoids DLL hell but it makes the system more closed.

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Kawa
Posted on 03-09-12 07:04 PM Link | ID: 8781
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And even then, in Win7, installers only need elevation because Program Files is protected. As long as they don't try to change things in the system directories, you don't need to close shit.

The same "they're off-the-shelf" origin can be blamed for the time estimate.


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Posted on 03-09-12 07:05 PM Link | ID: 8782
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Kiyoshi
Posted on 03-09-12 08:11 PM Link | ID: 8783
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Posted by Comments
Posted by Cynthia
Relevant article.
But the real problem, of course, is the eternal tension between security and convenience.

Undeniably, the simplest possible interface for installing a downloadable app would be a web page with a button saying "Download and install ThisApp" which--when clicked--would handle the entire download and install process. You click on it, there's a slight delay, and the application is sitting in your applications folder (Mac) or Start Menu (Windows), ready to go.

Of course, if a known, responsible developer were capable of doing this, then a somewhat less reputable individual would be just as easily able to put the download-and-install code behind a button that said "CLICK HERE FOR HOT PIXXXX!!!!" and have it install any and all sorts of stuff you really never wanted on your computer.



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Nicole
Posted on 03-09-12 08:18 PM Link | ID: 8784
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Posted by Cynthia
Relevant article.

Dunno, honestly I disagree with the article- moving the file into Applications (which has a little bit of the sidebar in the Finder, which is usually awful but makes it very easy in this specific regard) is to me easier than sitting through a setup.exe (which may itself have come in a zip file!), and deleting it is about as easy as ejecting the "disk" and deleting it.

And having everything in a convenient folder is easier, though of course Kiyoshi notes that tradeoffs there. (But of course, winsxs takes up so much space now... are the benefits of more shared resources really there on Windows?)


Kiyoshi
Posted on 03-09-12 08:52 PM (rev. 2 of 03-09-12 08:55 PM by Kiyoshi) Link | ID: 8787
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Posted by Nicole
Posted by Cynthia
Relevant article.

Dunno, honestly I disagree with the article- moving the file into Applications (which has a little bit of the sidebar in the Finder, which is usually awful but makes it very easy in this specific regard) is to me easier than sitting through a setup.exe (which may itself have come in a zip file!), and deleting it is about as easy as ejecting the "disk" and deleting it.

And having everything in a convenient folder is easier, though of course Kiyoshi notes that tradeoffs there. (But of course, winsxs takes up so much space now... are the benefits of more shared resources really there on Windows?)
I remember installing Windows 98 on a 6.4 GB hard drive, and I always copied the contents of the win98 install folder off the CD to my hard drive, so I would not need the CD every time.
For XP it was still advisable to do the same with the I386 folder.
Vista and 7 leave copies of system files for you.
It's a trade-off between convenience and disk space. The latter is hardly an issue nowadays.

Edit: DLL hell was mostly solved in Windows XP, which always looks for a DLL first in the program path, before looking in the system folders.

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Nicole
Posted on 03-09-12 08:53 PM Link | ID: 8788
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Posted by Kiyoshi
I remember installing Windows 98 on a 6.4 GB hard drive, and I always copied the contents of the win98 install folder off the CD to my hard drive, so I would not need the CD every time.
For XP it was still advisable to do the same with the I386 folder.
Vista and 7 leave copies of system files for you.
It's a trade-off between convenience and disk space. The latter is hardly an issue nowadays.

And that's the same reason to just include your libraries in the application package rather than dumping them in system folders. *shrug*


Kawa
Posted on 03-09-12 08:55 PM Link | ID: 8789
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Considering the working directory is the first place LoadLibrary'll look when you don't specify a path (which is the preferred style anyway)...


Kiyoshi
Posted on 03-09-12 08:57 PM Link | ID: 8790
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Posted by Nicole
Posted by Kiyoshi
I remember installing Windows 98 on a 6.4 GB hard drive, and I always copied the contents of the win98 install folder off the CD to my hard drive, so I would not need the CD every time.
For XP it was still advisable to do the same with the I386 folder.
Vista and 7 leave copies of system files for you.
It's a trade-off between convenience and disk space. The latter is hardly an issue nowadays.

And that's the same reason to just include your libraries in the application package rather than dumping them in system folders. *shrug*
Most programs do, but this still does not work for kernel-level libraries. For that, there is the compatibility mode fix.
And everything is solved if people just start using .NET :P

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Kawa
Posted on 03-09-12 09:06 PM Link | ID: 8792
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Preinstalled with recent Windowses, loader'll guide you halfway through an upgrade if you need one... but it can still require DLLs, unfortunately.


Kiyoshi
Posted on 03-09-12 09:12 PM Link | ID: 8793
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Also, there is no need to include KnownDLLs in installer packages.
Unlike what the Anti-MS communities say, this is not a security hole.

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Ailure
Posted on 03-09-12 10:24 PM (rev. 2 of 03-09-12 10:24 PM by Ailure) Link | ID: 8795
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If a installer really needs a certain application closed, it usually tells you which one anyway in my experience. I don't bother closing them all. :P

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Arisotura
Posted on 03-09-12 11:07 PM Link | ID: 8798
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I don't bother doing anything other than what the installer forces me to do.

And I loathe it when they force me to reboot. I generally just ignore the message and try to use the newly installed program anyway. If the program misbehaves, I'll first try to restart explorer.exe, in some cases it's enough. But in other cases, I eventually end up having to reboot.

On a related note, who actually reads the End User License Agreement before accepting it? I don't.

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Epele
Posted on 03-09-12 11:57 PM Link | ID: 8804
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I scan-read the EULA to see if it's a copy-pasta or custom one.

I read the custom ones at least. :)

Also, I tend to not close anything. System Restore is a nice tool. ;)


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ゼンガー・ゾンボルト
Posted on 03-10-12 03:36 AM Link | ID: 8820
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Posted by Liliana


Does anyone actually close other applications when installing something, because I definitely don't.


I only do that if the installer fails when I have something else running. It actually happened with something not too long ago.

And I rarely read the EULAs, if at all.

I hate having to restart the computer to complete installations, however.

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Epele
Posted on 03-10-12 11:39 AM Link | ID: 8824
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Posted by Trapster
I hate having to restart the computer to complete installations, however.
Especially worse when it's a program that doesn't warrant a restart.

Some I can understand, but most I can't.


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GreyMaria
Posted on 03-10-12 07:25 PM Link | ID: 8830
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Launch MS Paint and scribble something in it before you run an installer.

Suddenly, it can't force you to restart.

And yes, I've seen installers that will restart your computer even if you click "no, I don't want to restart now". This stops them in their tracks.
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