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05-17-22 01:15 PM
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Main - The Officer's Club - Abortion?
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KP
Posted on 02-14-15 01:37 AM, in Link | ID: 81920
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Because it's a worthy topic of debate. Debate was the design of this thread. What else are we going to debate about? Pancakes?

Besides, this thread is in the Officer's Club. People are expected to act semi-civil in here. We can have a convo (even a debate) like grown adults. Don't like it? Don't post in here telling us you aren't going to post in here and then criticize people for bringing up such a subject.



Squiddy
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The real issue isn't when the abortion is taking place but why is it taking place. The reasons why when the abortion the takes place is much bigger deal than why the abortion takes place is because politicians want it that way to distract people.

It doesn't matter if has a woman has been pregnant for 2 weeks or 4 weeks, if her boyfriend is forcing her to have an abortion, she should never have an abortion and instead, beat the shit out her misogynistic boyfriend. Likewise, if a woman was raped, has an ectopic pregnancy, etc., then she can have an abortion at any time during the pregnancy.

I'm just pointing this out because making when the abortion takes place rather than why the abortion takes place the main issue is one the tactics politicians use to distract people from the actual issues.

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Kironide
Posted on 02-15-15 05:05 AM, in Link | ID: 81970
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I'm sorry, but what?

The cases of forced abortions, rape, or ectopic pregnancies are, as you yourself note, not morally ambiguous at all. I don't think anyone (save for a negligible minority of people) is in disagreement on those points, hence I fail to see how they count as "actual issues".

When the abortion takes place, on the other hand, is a situation where there is considerable moral ambiguity.

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I don't want to get into details, but I had an abortion. I was roughly a few weeks in and we both agreed on it.

Yes, it is emotionally painful and I do think about it from time to time. And this was over 12 years ago, and I doubt I'll ever forget.

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Lunaria
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I personally feel that quite many who argue against abortion make some rather absurd assertions (No I'm not implying towards anyone in this thread, rather, from what I have seen in the past.).

But before I get to that I want to tackle some assumptions made in this thread:
Posted by Squiddy
Putting your baby up for adoption is always an option, though. So there is no excuse for abortion on demand.


Posted by KP9000
In the most basic of logic, yes, abortion is better. But, there are places where you can give up a baby no questions asked. No paperwork, no fear of discipline. Most hospitals have a place to just drop babies off if they're unwanted.


Both of these train of thoughts seem to be very grounded in how it works in the united states, I personally think that if you're going to make a moral argument for a medical right as a whole then you should also take in how the argument you're trying to make work as a whole. The united states has one of the highest adoption rates in the world, and this has a lot to do with adoption legislation, but if you look at some places else... well, not the same things apply.


Now, I will state that I am not an juridical expert, but I don't think anyone else here is for that matter. But as I recall, this is how adoption works in Sweden: The number of internal adoptions is at the 1-2% mark out of the total adoptions in Sweden, and the rest are so called international adoptions. And I should note that judged next to birthrates Sweden has as a whole less % adoption as a whole compared to the US. Why is that?

Well, one of the main reasons for this is that we simply don't have drop in drop off baby place. (And in-fact, I am highly critical towards those in the first place.) In Sweden you have an obligation as a parent to take of your child, and if you're unable (as judged by court.) the baby will be given to someone within your own family that is judged capable to taking care of it. There are very few scenarios where the child goes to a complete stranger. So as strange as it may be to say it, Sweden has babies for adoption as an import goods.

Now, I'm not bringing this up because I necessarily agree with the Swedish system or think it's the most optimal. (It's currently very hard for a same sex couple to have a child.) But rather, I bring it up as a counter point. Adoption laws work different in every country that has them, and not every country does. This is critical to take into account if you're to make a moral argument. :/

Food for thought perhaps?


---

Now secondly, I'll get into what I mentioned at the very top of my post.

A lot of the debate on adoption forgets two points that I consider critical! The first of those is the health of the mother. Now, there is usually not a problem for everyone to agree on the physical health of the mother, and in such cases most people consider it acceptable. But there is more to a human than bodily health, and I'd assert that mental health is just as important. Ever considered how horribly it must be like for the mother (and potentially father) to carry a child and be forced to bring it out to the world, yet for some reason don't want it, or perhaps they are armed with the knowledge that they'd be unable to provide for it? I can only imagine the mental state such a mother would be in as she carries the child. And it doesn't really matter if the child is to be given up to adoption afterwards, in fact, that might just make it worse. And for what? So that someone else out there can take the moral high ground and say that the life brought into the world is precious? Even though they don't seem give two rats ass what happens to the child after wards, and even though they have no intentions of taking care of that life themselves.

Which leads me into my second point.

I find it thoroughly pretentious that there are people out there who say they should and can decide and make such a judgement on others peoples lives without any sort of knowledge about them, everyone situation is different. Yes, if people are given the right to abort there will be those who uses that right for banal reasons. But you know what? I would be willing to stake a lot that such a group of people would in the very small minority. And the possibly positive consequences from allowing abortion? Priceless. And that's not an assumption, the US don't exist in a vacuum, you need only look at other countries.


---

Lastly, I'd like to make an assertion, and that is that law and legislation should strive to be as free from morals as possible. (Which is not easy, after all, that murdering someone is bad is just a moral.) In cases such as abortion, where there are quite many views on it and various different moralities, I'm of the personal belief that legislation should not take a moral side, but rather, should strive for a more objective approach. (Which in this case would be one that looks at benefits and problems from a medically scientific viewpoint.)






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Squiddy
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But the problem with that argument is that it throws human rights out the window and can be used to support genocide. :P

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Lunaria
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I made several argumentations in my post, it'd be nice to know which one you refereed to.

Regardless of which one though, you're miss-using the word genocide.

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Squiddy
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Posted by Lunaria
I find it thoroughly pretentious that there are people out there who say they should and can decide and make such a judgement on others peoples lives without any sort of knowledge about them, everyone situation is different. Yes, if people are given the right to abort there will be those who uses that right for banal reasons. But you know what? I would be willing to stake a lot that such a group of people would in the very small minority. And the possibly positive consequences from allowing abortion? Priceless. And that's not an assumption, the US don't exist in a vacuum, you need only look at other countries.

Lastly, I'd like to make an assertion, and that is that law and legislation should strive to be as free from morals as possible. (Which is not easy, after all, that murdering someone is bad is just a moral.) In cases such as abortion, where there are quite many views on it and various different moralities, I'm of the personal belief that legislation should not take a moral side, but rather, should strive for a more objective approach. (Which in this case would be one that looks at benefits and problems from a medically scientific viewpoint.)


Well, with those points, a dictator justify genocide by saying "There is scientific proof that the people we are exterminating are subhuman. You cannot say killing them is immoral because legislation needs to be free from morality. Also, think of all the benefits you will receive from this. We will never forget how those people cheated on us." (That example I made up sounds a lot like Hitler, by the way. :P)

Basically, it can be misused by any tyrant to justify their evil actions.

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Lunaria
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Well, if all you can possibly exert from my perspective is to equalise what I think with hitler than I'm afraid we have reached the floor with this discussion.

I'm not even sure how you draw your conclusions again. Even though your theoretical statement is absurd it it's own right, the first argumentation which you say proves your point actually goes against what you're saying.

Regardless, the sheer absurdity with your statement mostly points towards you completely missing the point anyway. The first argumentation is about that the layman should not be one to judge others over situations they have no stakes in, and the later half points out that we already know the benefits of what having abortion available is, so it's not an unknown what the outcome would be.

The second one is one of my own personal ideological beliefs in law making. In which while I want law making to strive to be as free from moral as possible (especially when there are scenarios where the population have wildly different opinions on the subject.) I do acknowledge that it's not necessary always supposed to be that way.


Firstly, you seem to misunderstand the former argument completely, secondly you strawman the second argumentation. And thirdly you equalise my view point with hitler to antagonise me. And fourthly, the act of genocide is per definition of the word impossible to apply to fetuses. Fifthly, you brought in ethnicity into the debate even though it's irrelevant.


So no, if this how high the celling of this debate goes, then I have no interest in taking part. Since clearly, there is no interest in actually performing intellectual debate.

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MIGHTY-BLACKDRAGON-
Posted on 03-04-15 04:29 PM, in (rev. 2 of 03-05-15 04:05 PM by MIGHTY-BLACKDRAGON-) Link | ID: 82704
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Posted by Lunaria

Now, I will state that I am not an juridical expert, but I don't think anyone else here is for that matter. But as I recall, this is how adoption works in Sweden: The number of internal adoptions is at the 1-2% mark out of the total adoptions in Sweden, and the rest are so called international adoptions. And I should note that judged next to birthrates Sweden has as a whole less % adoption as a whole compared to the US. Why is that?

Well, one of the main reasons for this is that we simply don't have drop in drop off baby place. (And in-fact, I am highly critical towards those in the first place.) In Sweden you have an obligation as a parent to take of your child, and if you're unable (as judged by court.) the baby will be given to someone within your own family that is judged capable to taking care of it. There are very few scenarios where the child goes to a complete stranger. So as strange as it may be to say it, Sweden has babies for adoption as an import goods.

Now, I'm not bringing this up because I necessarily agree with the Swedish system or think it's the most optimal. (It's currently very hard for a same sex couple to have a child.) But rather, I bring it up as a counter point. Adoption laws work different in every country that has them, and not every country does. This is critical to take into account if you're to make a moral argument. :/

Food for thought perhaps?


---

Now secondly, I'll get into what I mentioned at the very top of my post.

A lot of the debate on adoption forgets two points that I consider critical! The first of those is the health of the mother. Now, there is usually not a problem for everyone to agree on the physical health of the mother, and in such cases most people consider it acceptable. But there is more to a human than bodily health, and I'd assert that mental health is just as important. Ever considered how horribly it must be like for the mother (and potentially father) to carry a child and be forced to bring it out to the world, yet for some reason don't want it, or perhaps they are armed with the knowledge that they'd be unable to provide for it? I can only imagine the mental state such a mother would be in as she carries the child. And it doesn't really matter if the child is to be given up to adoption afterwards, in fact, that might just make it worse. And for what?

Lastly, I'd like to make an assertion, and that is that law and legislation should strive to be as free from morals as possible. (Which is not easy, after all, that murdering someone is bad is just a moral.) In cases such as abortion, where there are quite many views on it and various different moralities, I'm of the personal belief that legislation should not take a moral side, but rather, should strive for a more objective approach. (Which in this case would be one that looks at benefits and problems from a medically scientific viewpoint.)






Edited:
The problem is money itself in the united states, also could be a reason mental or physical state of the woman.
Rape plays into factor as well, if a woman does not want the child because of it I "DO" support that.
Its her own body and its upto her what she decides its best.
Lastly family problems play into factor, I won't give a specific detail but that may lead a woman into having an abortion.

http://www.abort73.com/abortion/common_objections/
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf
http://www.webmd.com/women/tc/abortion-reasons-women-choose-abortion

Over in sweden I don't know why abortions occur, if you like to look online and show legitamate proof of this.
I'll be more than willing to listen to you and look into it over time to make sure your correct.
Any other country has its own a different reasons, if they don't have the expenses to a raise baby that would be the main reason.



Squiddy
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The reason why no side will win the abortion debate is because anti-abortionists try to be open-minded but pro-abortionists can be close-minded so then that pisses anti-abortionists and then they start to be close-minded. And so, the abortion debate continues with neither side winning.

Also, what is it that makes abortion such a good thing but yet, murder of a live human is universally considered a bad thing? That doesn't makes sense. That's like saying it's alight to steal candy but not a car.

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Nicole
Posted on 05-09-15 06:00 PM, in (rev. 2 of 05-09-15 06:00 PM by Nicole) Link | ID: 84945
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Posted by Squiddy
Also, what is it that makes abortion such a good thing but yet, murder of a live human is universally considered a bad thing? That doesn't makes sense. That's like saying it's alight to steal candy but not a car.

You really seem to struggle with the idea that other people define the beginning of life at a different point than you. (And then you call your opponents close-minded!)


Squiddy
Posted on 05-09-15 08:30 PM, in (rev. 3 of 05-09-15 08:32 PM by Squiddy) Link | ID: 84946
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Actually, why don't we say life never begins, so that murder will always be acceptable? :D
And yes, my opponents can be close-minded. ;)

Posted by Nicole
...do you think this is a compelling argument?

Of course it is! I mean, if one says that murdering a fetus is okay because life has not begun, then one can say that life never begins so therefore murder is okay.

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Posted by Squiddy
Actually, why don't we say life never begins, so that murder will always be acceptable? :D

...do you think this is a compelling argument?


Phyresis
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What I find really amazing is that a lot of people I know who oppose abortion talk about the sanctity of life and yet don't... seem to ever bring up that issue any other time people put their lives in danger -- for any reason; I'm not even talking about the whole George Carlin "They want live babies so they can raise 'em to be dead soldiers!" schtick. But, we know that cigarettes are responsible for the deaths of many, many people per year, yet nobody ever seems to suggest we should ban them because of matters related to the "sanctity of life."

So basically: ?????

I mean, it's kind of off-topic, but on the other hand, it's a reason why I think that that argument is pretty bad. It's not entirely in play, either, I'd guess, but I still feel it bears being said, in a sense.

It's 5:40 in the morning here. If I'm not making a lot of sense... uh, there you go, I guess.

Nicole
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Posted by Squiddy
Posted by Nicole
...do you think this is a compelling argument?

Of course it is! I mean, if one says that murdering a fetus is okay because life has not begun, then one can say that life never begins so therefore murder is okay.

But the problem is that you're inherently assuming the point that conception is the natural starting-point of life, so any changes from that seem arbitrary to you- but to me birth is the natural starting-point of life, so the point doesn't seem arbitrary.

I mean, to counter your argument I could just as easily say that if we can move the starting point of life arbitrarily early, I might as well say it should be illegal to stop a rapist, because you'd be killing the potential children they could force on their victims. Hopefully you agree that this is a nonsense argument (and I doubt you find it particularly convincing)


Squiddy
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Posted by Nicole
Posted by Squiddy
Posted by Nicole
...do you think this is a compelling argument?

Of course it is! I mean, if one says that murdering a fetus is okay because life has not begun, then one can say that life never begins so therefore murder is okay.

But the problem is that you're inherently assuming the point that conception is the natural starting-point of life, so any changes from that seem arbitrary to you- but to me birth is the natural starting-point of life, so the point doesn't seem arbitrary.

I mean, to counter your argument I could just as easily say that if we can move the starting point of life arbitrarily early, I might as well say it should be illegal to stop a rapist, because you'd be killing the potential children they could force on their victims. Hopefully you agree that this is a nonsense argument (and I doubt you find it particularly convincing)


The sperm and egg alone is not the same thing as a fertilized egg. So stopping a rapist is not murder because there is no fetus or embryo being killed. And yes, life does start at the point of conception.

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I really don't think you understand what your saying.
Nicole has shown that, luna has proven that, even I have shown this.
You can look at it from your point of view but thats not how things work in life. :/
Notice to staff: please go ahead and lock it, this discussion is becoming ridiculos.

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Posted by MIGHTY-BLACKDRAGON-
I really don't think you understand what your saying.
Nicole has shown that, luna has proven that, even I have shown this.
You can look at it from your point of view but thats not how things work in life. :/
Notice to staff: please go ahead and lock it, this discussion is becoming ridiculos.
The point of this thread is to peacefully debate ideas about a given subject; in this case, it's abortion. The difference between your post and others' posts (for the most part) is that you're retarding further discussion. You don't see a point in continuing because you don't see the value and perspective that can come from such a discussion.

Thread will stay open as it seems to be staying productive for the moment.



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